Regions of Ancient Macedonia

[BigBlackBeast]

Originally Posted by Cadmus

http://books.google.nl/books?id=tJIf...gIGkBmf8&hl=nl

Look at this page about the Bryges, they place the surviving remnants around Ohrid/Lychnidus , also in another French version i found the Bryges are placed in front of lake Ventrok=mikra Prespa....!!

I think Brucida is part of a Bryge territory, but was Brucida merely a station on the V.E. or a small settlement even town?

I must say I'm not entirely convinced ... Those early traveller/historians, although they must be given their due for the very important foundation work they did, do not inspire me with too much confidence. Much of their deductions were closer to guesses than carefully reasoned hypotheses. But who knows? When I get the chance I shall scan some sections of Hammond and you can compare ...

According to Hammond - and you can also see this in the large extract I posted earlier - there were three major remnants of the Bryges/Phrygians in the western Balkans after the departure to Anatolia of the major part of this people. These remnants were:

The Bryges in the general vicinity of Pelagonia whose exact location we have thus far been trying to place;

The Bryges in the hinterland of Dyrrachium/Epidamnus in Albania;

The Bryges in the vicinity of Barc in southern Albania which is the one you are referring to above. It lies west of Little Prespa lake.

So these were the three remaining isolated groups of Bryges in classical times. At the height of their power, the Bryges/Phrygians in the Balkans ruled probably from the vicinity of Edessa at the edge of the Salonika plain ... the so-called gardens of Midas. There were, however, no Bryges in this area when the Makedones expanded into that region almost two centuries later.

mutatio what does that mean?
I know that most stations on the V.E. were in fact small settlements such as Casta/Nicia/Parembole if they are all the same names for a single town...i know for sure that Parembole and Casta are the same but wasn't Nicia situated more nothwards of Parembole and formed a triangle with Parembole and Heracleia ?

According to my little Latin dictionary, 'mutatio' can best be defined as an 'exchange' - ie probably some sort of connecting station.

This idea about the three sites forming a triangle is taken from Leake? Not sure where Hammond places them.

Patience. I will get back to you ...

[Cadmus]

Hi!

So the Bryghes were scattered in 3 areas as you mention,
1 Barc area-Devoll area as well as Korce(western part of mikra Prespa)

2 And Dyrrachium..but where are the sources mentioning them(and did they really survive in the same way as the Bryghes in the Pelagonia area, ie forming towns typically Bryge? such as Brygias??)and how certain can we be that Brygion=Brygias?

3 And the Pelagonian area, where we try to locate them north of the Pelagonian plain if i'm correct?? because the Demir Hisar region still does not sound logical to me...and its a to tightly pressed area in between the Pelagones(Derropes) and Penaestians(illyrians)..were supposedly Brygias was located..

In the Findlay map we can see a Brygias in between lake Lychnitus and Prespa...thing is amazingly most towns on that map are situated on the place where indeed evidence was found of the town mentioned (correct ones are for instance the placing of Eudaristus, Heracleia, Stobi etc..
The map also places the capitol of Pelagonia in Heracleia's vicinity, but no proof has been found yet.

We have sources more then one ,accurate or not placing some Bryghes in the lakeland areas , it needs to be investigated further!

According to my little Latin dictionary, 'mutatio' can best be defined as an 'exchange' - ie probably some sort of connecting station.

This idea about the three sites forming a triangle is taken from Leake? Not sure where Hammond places them.

Yes it was Leake i think.

Parembole also is a station or mutatio (change point) but certainly settlements were situated at those points..as in Parembole for instance and where after the construction of the V.E. roman military stations were formed, but the V.E. was constructed on existing roads and there is a possibility that ofcourse town/villages were apparent in pre-roman times..in those areas on the V.E.

But are there sources mentioning a town of Brucida, or atleast a settlement?

But can we assume that Brucida has no connection with Bryghe territory?

All the best,

[akritas]

Originally Posted by BigBlackBeast

Yes I do Akrita ... and Volume 2 and Volume 3!

Check your PM box!!

[akritas]

Upper Macedonia, Lynkos

General Information:
The earliest mention of Lynkos occurs in Thucydides (II, 99), who considered that it belonged in Upper Macedonia. Howeve the literary record for this remote district remains fragmentary. The only etymological version for its name is that it derived from the local tribe of Lynkestes.

Thucydides (IV, 128) mentioned that Brasidas retreating to the south, passed from Lynkos to Arnissa (Eordaia region) while Strabo (VII, 323), describing the route of the Via Egnatia, testified that after Lynkos to the south lay Eordaia. Consequently, it is assumed that Lynkos was located - to the north of Eordaia and north-northwest of Orestis which lay to the west of Eordaia- thus prolongations of Mts. Boras, Vitsi and Pindos formed the southern boundaries, the lake Prespa the southwestern and Mts. Varnous and Vitsi the western.

Furthermore, according to an­other passage of Strabo (VII, fr.8) Almopia was after (to the north of Eordaia,near to the east of) Lynkos therefore, it is clear that Lynkos bordered on Almopia to the east, having hence as eastern frontier, another prolongation of Mt. Boras.

Finally, Livy (XXVI, 25), describing the way to Thessaly, placed Lynkos after to the south of Pelagonia,stating thus that prolongations of Pindos, Varnous and Boras along with the upper Erigon valley served as the north-northeastern borders.

This district, according to several theories' was initially occupied by several different tribes. Namely in Lynkos once lived Pelasgoi (theory based on the archaeological finds of the prehistoric mounds at Porodin, that testify the habitation of pre-Hellenic-Pelasgian tribes), Phryges, Illyri-ans (theory relying on the observation of Illyrian influence in the archaeo­logical finds of the prehistoric cemeteries at the borders of Pelagonia and Lynkos) and Orestes.

However a dominant tribe, the Lynkestes arrived once in this area and displacing all the others became the local inhabi­tants. It was claimed that they were of Illyrian or Macedonian origin however those suggestions were rejected, since they were not well sup­ported. Nevertheless, Lynkestes played an important role in the Macedo­nian history, being sometimes allies, sometimes enemies.

Alexander's army Lynkestes constituted an army troop along with Orestes, having Perdikkas as general (Diodorus XVII, 57). Moreover, Lynkos was the birthplace of Leonnatos, Macedonian general who after Alexander's death, became ruler of Hellespontic Phrygia. During the 2nd Macedonian war, Lynkos was one of the battlefields, where Philip V defeated the Romans (Livy XXXI, 34) that had already ravaged this dis­trict. Finally, during the first phase of the Roman occupation (167-146 BC) Lynkos was included in «Macedonia Quarta».

Unfortunately, this district (which partly belongs to modern FYROM is not thoroughly excavated. Moreover the ancient sources referring to Lynkos are vague.


Sites :
Consequently, the sites listed in ancient sources that were attirubted with certain reservation to it were: Herakleia Lynkestis, Brygias, Scirtonia, Castra-Parembole, Athacos, Octalophus, and Beuve.

HERAKLEIA LYNKESTIS
Herakleia was a rather important site of U.M. It was named after Herakles, in the attempt of either the Bacchiadai (the royal family of Lynkos, coming from Corinth) or Philip II, to honour him.
According to Ptolemy [III, 13.33], it belonged to Lynkos, a fact that gave initial evidence for its location in the broader area of this district. However, Polybius [XXXIV, 12.7:], Strabo [VII,7.4:] and Hierocles [«Synecdeme», 638.11] being more specific, testified that the Via Egnatia passed through it, and Antonine Itinerary319-320, 330.3-7] and Itinerary Burdigalense 319-320] recorded it at a distance of 62-69m from Edessa, 90-99 m from Pella and 117-129 m from Thessalonike. In additiona milestone of the Via Egnatia found at Pella, mentioning that the «site of Herakleiotai» was at a distance of 249m from Dyrrachio, along with the discovery of some inscriptions [Sb.1,2] at Monastir (modern Bitola) refer­ring to Herakleia's inhabitants, made the identification obvious.

Conse­quently, the majority of the scholars, following the above evidence, lo­cated it in the vicinity of ex. Monastir (modern Bitola), 2km to the south of the modern site.

As regards the archaeological remains of the area, Heuzey had first noticed traces of citadel on a hill. In addition, parts of fortifications were brought to light, dating from the 4th cent BC and on. The public buildings found so far, consist of traces of a theatre of the Classical period.

The history of the site can be partially reconstructed through indirect evidence. Desdevises-du-Dezert had suggested that it was a foundation of the Bacchiadai. Demitsas and Borza , on the other hand, suggested that it was founded by Philip II, after the defeat of Bardylles (358 BC), as a garrison site, guarding his northwest frontier.
Moreover, Leake interpreting Livy's [XXXI, 3] passage as referring to Herakleia and not the district in general, claimed that it served as a place for encampment of the Roman army in 200 BC.
Finally DemitSas considering Herakleia as identical with Pelagonia since there was no such site in Livy's [XLV, 29] passage, suggested that it con­stituted the capital of «Macedonia Quarta» after 168 BC, a suggestion that Hammond rejected.

BRYGIAS
was mentioned by Stephanos Byzantius as a site of Macedonia. Moreover Greek Professor Demitsas identifying it as the «Brucida» of Itinerary Burdigalense[ 606-7 ] and thus placing at a distance of 31m from Herakleia, suggested that it belonged to Lynkos and lay to the northern side of Prespa where ancient remains were noticed. However the lack of any other evidence prevents any other comment.


SCIRTONIA
Scirtonia was mentioned only in Antonine Itinerary [329.10-330.3], as being on the Via Egnatia, at a distance of 18m from Herakleia. Furthermore Demitsas claimed that it belonged to Lynkos and should be placed in modern Resna. Nevertheless, the absence of any other information does not permit any further assumption.


CASTRA-PAREMBOLE
Castra was recorded in Antonine Itinerary [329-30] as being a «mutatio» of the Via Egnatia at a distance of 12m from Herakleia, while according to Itinerary Burdigalense [606-72], at the same direction and distance was placed Parembole. There­fore Demitsas identified them as identical. However, there is no sugges­tion for the location of this site.

ATHACOS
Athacos was a site mentioned only in Livy [ XXXI,34] as a place that Philip V passed through. Moreover, Desdevises-du-Dezert and Demitsas identi­fied it as belonging to Lynkos, and lying somewhere to the northeast of Prespa. The lack of any additional evidence does not allow a secure identi­fication for the place or the date of the foundation of this site.



OCTALOPHUS
Octalophus was also a place mentioned by Livy [XXXI, 36S]. Demitsas con­sidered it as a Roman fortress located in Lynkos and identified it as mod­ern Megarovo. The lack of evidence prevents further discussion.Octalophus mean 8 hiils

BEUVE
Beuve was listed as a site of Macedonia, lying by the homonymous river, by Stephanos Byzantius . Demitsas placed it in Lynkos, somewhere between Mt. Varnous and the river Erigon. Further­more, he identified it as a «polichne» while Leak on the other hand, considered it as a site. However, the lack of any supportive evidence does not allow any secure identification.

Sources

1. Demitsas M, Ancient Geography of Macedonia,1879
2. Nicholas Hammond, History of Macedonia Vol 1, 1972, Greek edition (1996)
3. Sakellariou, Macedonia: 4000 Years of Greek History, 1982
4. Maria Girtzi, Historical topography of ancient Macedonia,2001

[Andrew]

A region of central Macedonia that frequently is forgotten is Makedonis , the area around Aegai , posted among Bottiea e Pieria . It's northern limits with Bottiea are mentioned by Herodotus as the union of the rivers Haliakmon (ancient watercourse) and Loudias. These limits correspond to the limits of today's prefectures of Emathia and Pella
HERODOTUS (7.127) :
«...μέχρι Λυδίεῶ τε ποταμοῦ καί Ἀλιάκμονος , οι οὐρίζουσι γῆν τὴν Βοττιαιίδα τε καῖ Μακεδονίδα , ές τὠυτό ῥέθρον τό ὕδωρ συμμίσγοντες»

127. When Xerxes had reached Therma he established the army there; and his army encamping there occupied of the land along by the sea no less than this,--beginning from the city of Therma and from Mygdonia it extended as far as the river Lydias and the Haliacmon, which form the boundary between the lands of Bottiaia and Macedonis, mingling their waters together in one and the same stream. The Barbarians, I say, were encamped in these regions; and of the rivers which have been enumerated, only the river Cheidoros flowing from the Crestonian land was insufficient for the drinking of the army and failed in its stream.


By that I think that Makedonis is south Bottiea (Emathia) + Northern Pieria and was the very first nucleus of the Macedonian Kingdom around Aegae....
....What do you say about it ???

[Cadmus]

#Bump#!

[Cadmus]

OCTALOPHUS
Octalophus was also a place mentioned by Livy [XXXI, 36S]. Demitsas con*sidered it as a Roman fortress located in Lynkos and identified it as mod*ern Megarovo. The lack of evidence prevents further discussion.Octalophus mean 8 hiils

Let me work on this , since the topic pitifully seems to be jammed!

Octalophus placing it near Megarovo is a bad option , we would have 3 urban settlements in close proximity

1 Casta/Parembole which indeed are the same! near Dolenci close to Bitola just outside and north of the pass leading from Prespa area to Bitola plain.

2 Megarovo is just 1m away even closer from the location of Casta/Parembole, that would be to close for me for 2 separate towns. Allthough it could be possible, but Megarovo rests on the foot of the Pelister mountain range/park..and from my knowledge those 8 hills are not bound to that area atleast..maybe they were 8 small hills, more like raised ground or fortified positions on 8 consequetive raised (manmade) hills..

3 Herakleia Lyncestis is just 1/2m away from both Casta/Parembole and Megarovo so it would be a packed situation in that area, nonetheless accounts from Herakleia should atleast mention such neirghby stations/settlements...

Conclusion if Octalophus was in that area it must had been only for a short time and the fortress must had been abandoned and broken apart if it was to be positioned in that specific area at all.

[Cadmus]

According to some sources Sulpicius the Roman encamped near the river Beve who fed as a small stream the Erigon where the town of Beve was situated.

It says that coming from the direction of the land of the Dessaretes the Romans encamped there..that Dessaretes land was incorporating the 2 lakes of the area Prespa and Lychnitis.
So they came from the pass from Prespa leading towards Herakleia..there is a town now submerged called Strezevo that is north of that pass, there is and was a river that feeds the Erigon it is in the Lopotica novo Zmirnevo valley, supposedly there is a stream allthough interupted on several ocasions that we can assume if we extrapolate the right direction it does feed the Erigon,allthough bot rivers are relatively small and both are interrupted and it's courses are altered at several points the original directions still can be seen!

[Andrew]

"mutatio" ment "changing horses of the wagon" , that is a way to say Station .

[Cadmus]

Hi Andrea!

Can you repost here the part of the pre roman via egnatia?
So we can discuss it further and try to find out the real age of some of the important settlements on this important road..