The 'Hellenization' argument contradiction

[Ptolemy]

Originally Posted by Giourkas

Correction: According to Professor Ivo Hajnal (University of Innsbruck) there exist at least 2 macedonian texts. One is the Pella curse tablet and the other one is another tablet found in Arethousa in 1997. The Arethousa tablet however took some damage trought the ages. Epigraphical Database: SEG 47:885

That was supposed to be 'oldest' and i wrote by mistake 'only', as it seems anyway from the context. However Pella Katadesmos is generally believed to be the oldest. In reality this possibly is not the case. There is for example Stele of Xanthos dating from the end of 5th c. BC.
More about it here

In a sense we could state Pella Katadesmos is the only full dialectical text in ancient Macedonian. Arethousa which is rather mutilated text, concerns judicial matters and only a few words can be easily identified ie. katagrafo.

[Ptolemy]

Here is an exhange of thoughts i had elsewhere. Thought to paste them here.

Prolemy wrote:

From my researches till now i have found the following:

1. Pella Katadesmos

Epigraphical Database: SEG 43:434

This is *widely* believed to be the oldest one and it is *supposedly* written in a north-west greek dialect (?) having a few peculiarities but akin to the dialect of Epirotes.

2. The Arethousa tablet

Epigraphical Database: SEG 47:885

Unfortunately it seems to be damaged through ages and only a few words can be easily recognised ie "καταγράφω".It is considered as written in ancient Macedonian dialect by some prof. but without being a linguist, i am a little skeptic over this issue, based solely on the region's history. Arethousa was located in Mygdonia and it was for a long time independent from Macedonia, plus a member of the second Athenian naval league. It could possibly be in Attic. The limited number of words found on the text cant be too helpful.

3. Stele of Xanthos

Ç ãëþóóá ôùÃ* áñ÷áßùÃ* ÌáêåäüÃ*ùÃ* - Ã�Ã�á óôïé÷åßá áðü ôçÃ* Ã�Ã�ëëá

Akamates seems to support its the oldest inscription in ancient Macedonian but contrary to Pella Katadesmos which was a fully dialectic text, here we have only a few good names of Makedones.

4. Phiale of Megara

Lastly there is also the phiale of Megara, we have discussed a little about it in previous posts but i havent found any full references about it anywhere in books, except of Hammond's "History of Macedonia".

This was written by prof. Kapetanopoulos in response to my post above so i copy it here.

Hello, In reality there are no ancient texts makedonisti/Macedonian dialect, and Akamates sums this up well [with some other isolated names dating earlier, from Aiane, for example]. There is, of course, the Pella katadesmos with its language peculiarities which are identifiable as Makedonian dialect. The earliest epigraphical evidence from Makedonia consists only of names, but the names of this early period can reveal something about the Makedones in this instance. Names’ etymology, type, formation, endings/suffixes, etc. [the names are written naturally in the Greek alphabet]. And where makedonisti is mentioned in the ancient sources, no specimen is given illustrating makedonisti [as it is usually done with lakonisti].
In any case from the available evidence the Makedones were Greek speakers, and this is best illustrated of how hard it becomes to distinguish who is Greek and who is Makedon, unless so stated or the name implies a certain origin.

The Arethousa inscription [No. 2] simply indicates the language used in the area, and it has been called Makedonian because Mygdonia had become a part of Makedonia [this appears to be the explanation here].

[Ptolemy]

Some inscriptions of 4th-3rd c. BC



Struck, A. MDAI(A) 27 (1902) 311, no. 17 - Funerary base with elegiac couplet, Macedonia - Pella, Date: 4th century BC, Struck, A. "Inschriften aus Makedonien," MDAI(A) 27 (1902) 305-320; SEG 24.541; Papakonstantinou-Diamantoupou, D. Pella I. (Athens1971) 139, no. 212




EKM I 498 - Funerary monument with relief
4th century BC (?) -Beroea
Center for Epigraphical and Palaeographical Studies



Macedonia - Pella Date: End of 4th century BC, Reference: Demitsas, M.G. He Makedonia. (Athens 1896) no. 129; Papakonstantinou-Diamantoupou, D. Pella I. (Athens 1971) 138, no. 210; CIG 1997b.



Cormack, J.M.R. ABSA 39 (1938-1939), 95, no. 5 - Dedication with relief
3rd century BC

One of the best collections about inscriptions of Macedonia - photos included

[akritas]

As Alexander swept across the known world, he founded Greek cities which helped to spread Hellenistic ideas throughout the world. The most important of these cities was Alexandria in Egypt. After his death his successor in Egypt, Ptolemy I, made Alexandria his capital. As a result it became one of the Hellenistic periods major centers of culture and learning. Of particular importance for our investigation of the evolution of western society was that the population of Alexandria included a large contingent of diaspora Jews. Diaspora Jews are the descendants of those who were driven out of Israel. Though by this time they were heavily Hellenized, they yet maintained a loyalty to their homeland and their religion. These Jewish citizens of Alexandria spoke and wrote in Greek. They translated the ancient Jewish books into Greek and formed the Greek bible called the Septaugent. The term is derived from the method of determining the validity of the translations. They were translated by a committee of seventy scholars who had to agree on the translations.

Greek philosophy was debated in the market places, became part of the everyday language of the Greek people. The pooling of religious and philosophical ideas that the Hellenistic era is noted for is now called Syncretism. The lack of a single overriding cultural structure led to an eclectic approach to both religion and philosophy. The Greek Gods took on Roman names. The Romans adopted Greek philosophy. The Stoics called themselves "citizens of the world."
The Romans were a far more practical people than the Greeks, and more skilled at governing. Stoicism became the strongest force in Roman life. The two best known Roman Stoic writers were Epictetus, a slave, and Marcus Aurelius, an Emperor. Perhaps we could best get a feel for their attitudes by reading their words directly for once truth becomes of secondary importance to living then it is feelings and not logical order which tell us the real meaning of a culture.

[wanted_gr]

etsi eitan ...

[Andrew]

Those who believe that Macedonians where barbarians that got Hellenized have ever considered that in their vast maggiority were nomadic goatherds up in the mountains in constant movement...Do you think that it is easy to find them , follow them and instruct them the greek language ?? Even if Philip created cities with schools ...do you think that all these goatherds abbandoned at once the goats and the mountains and went to the cities to ricieve a "foreign" education like greek just because Philip said so???
I think that this process of "Hellenization" is realy a process of MODERNIZATION that caused the transition from an archaic-greek nomadic society in a classical-greek urbanized society !!
Didn't the same thing happened with the Aetolians ??? They were defined by Thoukydides "uncivilized with an incomprehensible language" and in the 3rd century BC they had one of the most powerful "koina" .

[Relax be]

I don't know why I bother, but what the heck.

Sorry to spoil the party here gentleman, but we have ancient historians referring to the fact that the Macedonians spoke an indigenous language, different from Koine. Quintus Curtius Rufus gives an indication of this when he refers to the trial of Philotas:

Alexander speaks: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."

Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."

Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language." [p.138]

This is one of the more noted examples and illustrates the hole that exists in the argument " Ancient Macedonians only spoke Koine".

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Relax be

I don't know why I bother, but what the heck.

Sorry to spoil the party here gentleman, but we have ancient historians referring to the fact that the Macedonians spoke an indigenous language, different from Koine. Quintus Curtius Rufus gives an indication of this when he refers to the trial of Philotas:
Alexander speaks: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."

Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."

Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language." [p.138]



This is one of the more noted examples and illustrates the hole that exists in the argument " Ancient Macedonians only spoke Koine".

I already answered you well !!!!

In a panhellenic army ..it was easier for all greeks to speak in Koine ...and their dialect amongst them !!!!

All the afternoon Me , kzk842 , and Kostas68 were speaking "Modern macedonian dialect" ...do you think most of our phrases were easy to understand by other greeks???

BTW ...keep bringing your proves ....in that way we'll have work to do !!!

Find me a greek outside my little region who can understand me saying "πραγανίζω το ψωμί" instead of "φρυγανίζω το ψωμί" (toasting the bread)

"εχ σσάμ μέσα" ..instead of "έχει σουσάμι μέσα" (there is sesamon inside) ...most greeks understand it as "εχυσάμε μέσα" ("we have spilled inside")...and so it's like an anekdote

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by Relax be

I don't know why I bother, but what the heck.

Sorry to spoil the party here gentleman, but we have ancient historians referring to the fact that the Macedonians spoke an indigenous language, different from Koine. Quintus Curtius Rufus gives an indication of this when he refers to the trial of Philotas:



This is one of the more noted examples and illustrates the hole that exists in the argument " Ancient Macedonians only spoke Koine".

Read here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/41592...38217%3B+trial

[kzk842]

Originally Posted by Relax be

I don't know why I bother, but what the heck.

Sorry to spoil the party here gentleman, but we have ancient historians referring to the fact that the Macedonians spoke an indigenous language, different from Koine. Quintus Curtius Rufus gives an indication of this when he refers to the trial of Philotas:



This is one of the more noted examples and illustrates the hole that exists in the argument " Ancient Macedonians only spoke Koine".

Relax,i know its hard for you to understand it but Pellas katadesmos and a few other texts that you can see in post above are NOT IN KOINE GREEK,they are in a dialect of Greek that is founded only in Macedonia.
As all other Greek tribes Macedonians spoke their dialect (Macedonian) and in common(koine=common in ancient and modern Greek) language of the all Greeks,there was also other dialects among the Greek tribes as Arcado-Cypriot,Ionian,Aiolic etc.

If you ask could other Greek tribes understand it?
Possible no,a Cypriot or a Athenian was not able to understand 100% the dialects of each other even though they used other versions of the same words,but this is not something strange for Greeks cause even today a Athenian or a Macedonian is not able to understand a Pontic Greek(evolution of Ionian dialect) or a Cypriot (evolution of the Arcado-Cypriot dialect).

For the scientific community there is no doubt that ancient Macedonians spoke a language that was of Greek stock simply cause there are findings in koine and in Macedonian dialect and nothing more.