Origins of the Ancient Macedonians (Split thread)

[Demetrius Doukas]

Rhino,
I wonder how you can post some links like yours concerning Macedonian origins?!
Once for all the Macedonians are not only PURE Greeks but they are the first Greek tribe forming a civilized society, they were Dorians, and together with the rest - Achaians, Ionians and so on were pure Greeks who fought each other for dominance, but after the persian asaults against Greece(this name refering to todays contemporary Greece) I use for convinience Alexander united the Greek tribes against the persians and won the war. Such partial sources that you put here on the site are not only insuficient and is clear that their aim is to DISTORT the Truth.
look here a complete History of the Greeks including the Macedonian Tribe.
[url=http://www.krassanakis.gr]
[url]www.members.fortunecity.com (in English but here we have not a complete history of Greece the first link is much better)

[Rhino]

Demetrios Doucas, the Greek essence of the ancient literary and high class Macedonian language is accepted by most scholars.

In simple words, under “Macedonian language” or “the Macedonian”, every traditional linguist, until at least the end of the 1940s (when the standardization of the new language took place) understood the ancient Macedonian language. Very important linguists such as H. Ahrens (De Graecae linguae dialectis, Goettingen 1843), G. Chatzidakis (Zur Abstammung der alten Makedonier, Athens 1897) or O. Hoffmann (Die Makedonen. Ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum, Goettingen 1906) devoted themselves to the analysis of the ancient Macedonian language as a pre-stage of Greek. Contemporary linguists such as G. Buck (The Greek Dialects, Chicago 1955), J. Chadwick (The Prehistory of the Greek Language, Cambridge 1963), G. Babiniotis (“Ancient Macedonian: The Place of Macedonian among the Greek Dialects”, in : A. M. Tamis (ed.), Macedonian Hellenism, Melbourne 1990, pp. 241-250) have continued using this terminology.

In recent years, a wealth in unprecedented numbers (over 5,000) of Greek inscriptions from archaeological excavations in Greek Macedonia, have furnished concrete evidence of the Greek identity of the language of Ancient Macedonia. The most recent authoritative assessment of the Ancient Macedonian dialect is provided by the eminent Emeritus Professor of the University of Paris, Olivier Masson, in the recent edition (1996) of “THE OXFORD CLASSICAL DICTIONARY” 3rd edition, 1996, Oxford U. Press, (Oxford, New York) pp. 905-6: “For a long while Macedonian onomastics, which we know relatively well thanks to history, literary authors, and epigraphy, has played a considerable role in the discussion. In our view the Greek character of most names is obvious and it is difficult to think of a Hellenization due to wholesale borrowing... Macedonian may then be seen as a Greek dialect, characterized by its marginal position and by local pronunciations. Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it an Aeolic dialect we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek... We must wait for new discoveries, but we may tentatively conclude that Macedonian is a dialect related to North-West Greek”.


Macedonian Heritage - FAQ

But there are still disagreement about the ethnical origin of the Macedonians. See this article for example:

Whether Philip was entirely happy about this we cannot know. As we have seen, he had made every effort to reconcile and integrate Greeks the Macedonians. But the passage provides the necessary background to the fact that even Philip had not tried to pass off his Macedonians as Greek and had been perfectly content to accept membership of the Delphic Amphictyony as a personal gift, just as, in due course, he never tried to make his Macedonians members of the Hellenic League. Meanwhile, he was hoping to leave the final settlement of the problem to the future: alexander was to prepare the way for fuller integration than could at present be attempted or claimed. We have no idea of what Macedonians, on the other side of this fence, thought of this whole issue: no Macedonian oratory survives, since the language was never a literary one. But that the feeling of a major difference (obviously, the Macedonians"), of their being "peoples of non-kindred race," existed on both sides is very probable. for one thing, the language barrier would keep it alive, even though the literary language of educated Macedonians could only be Greek. That fact was as irrelevant to ordinary people (and perhaps even to those above the ordinary level) as was the Hellenic cultural polish of the Macedonian upper class that has been revealed to us in recent years. The artistic and cultural koine of much of eighteenth-century europe was French; indeed, upper class German ladies might confess that it was the only language they could write. Yet not all of them, by any means, were even Francophile, and none of them felt that they were French. The reaction to a Greek "court philosopher,' or perhaps--if we can believe at least the outline of the story--the anger of Clitus: these help to document feelings in the very class that, as we now know, was culturally conspicuous for Hellenism. But like many prejudices, these feelings of antagonism are most clearly seen among ordinary people--whether the Athenians who applauded Demosthenes' tirades or ordinary Macedonian soldiers; and not only those who deserted Ambiance.

Badian

[Demetrius Doukas]

Rhino,
Thank you that is something better. But read the article about the Macedonians pay to translate the article to you. The proves there are incontestable for the Greekness of Macedonians. The Greek nation , The Ionians, the Athinins, and mainly the Dorian and Macedoniki tribe formed the first Greek civilizations from the Pelasgiko Tribe, the First who made this were the Doriko and Makedno Tribe as says Herodotos. So the Macedonians not only are pure Greeks, but the First to make a kingdom. The Dorians were (Makedonians) were a nation descendants of the King Dorios son of the King of Fthiothida Ellina who in the years of King Deukalionas lived in Fthiotida. Isiodos one of the ancient writers in the world says: O Grekos, O Ellinas, O Magnis and Makidonas were one family sons of Dia and Pandoras daughter of Deukaliona as is written for him in the book of Isiodos.
So:
1) Greece in the ancient time was called Pelasgia and the Lakedemonians, the Spartiates, Iones , Athinians, Nisiotes(who lived in the islands) and the others Greek tribes from the Pelasgians began to form each one tribe separate kingdoms and forms of civilizations then after that some other barbarian tribes from Europe(like Thracians), Asia and Egypt also intermixed with them and from this was formed the Hellenic nation later on. For the Dorians(the first from Pelasgians) and wrote alredy a little, in Pindos they were known as Makedno tribe and in the Peloponisos as Doriko tribe which is the same. But they did not have a democratic system, that is way the Demosthenes called them barbarians not because they had not Hellenic descent but because of that. Also before the Troian war the Hellenes were not called Hellenes as a whole but there were separate Polisi (cities) and tribes and kingdoms - like in Attiki the Athinians, in Biouthia - Thiban and Kadmeia, Pella in Makedonia et.c. Also as Omir says before the Troian war there wasn't separation between Hellenes and barbarians because at that time Ellada was called just the region in the Pelasgiko Argos(from where is Alexander the Great descent) but after the Troian war as Hellenes began to be identified and the other Greek tribes in comparison with the nonGreek speaking other barbaric tribes(because they did not had education). The name Ellada was finally was established for the whole Greek speaking tribes in the time of the war against the Persians and as a head to that Panhellenic union was choosed Alexander the Great in the council of Corinthos.
This is very very very breaf resume that I preasented to you here because of a lack of time but I'm shure you can find more information on the internet.

[Rhino]

Demetrios Doukas,

when the Greeks came to what is now Macedonia, they found tribes who already had lived there and who were very close in kin with the Thracian tribes. The Greeks mixed up with this population are the ancient Macedonian nation was formed. Whether it was fully Hellenized or only the aristocracy used to speak and write Greek, we don't know. But u must notice that the Thracian tribes as a whole were allies of Troy, as Homer testimony.

[Demetrius Doukas]

Rhino,
the Macedonian tribe are pure Hellenes, not only that but THE FIRST HELLENIC TRIBE to form a kingdom. So Macedonia is the CRADLE of Hellenic civilization. IT IS THE HEART OF HELLAS! Without the Macedonian tribe Greece will not exist today, they were the wariors who preserved the whole Hellenic ethnicities from the numerous barbarian attacs.The Athenians would never be able to reach their higher level of culture without the Macedonians who protected all Hellenes in the north.They were the FIRST from the Pelasgians to form a separate kingdom, and immediatly after that the other Hellenic tribes began to form their polisis. There is no such thing like "Greeks came to Macedonia" there were no Greeks at that time but Hellenic tribes! And because the Macedonians themselves are Hellenes by Blood not just culture. If Athens represent the democratic Hellas, Pella and Vergina later Thessaloniki (in Byzantine times) represent the Kingdom Greece (the monarchy like form of government), it is not accidentaly that in the time of the Macedonian Dynasty Byzantium reached the peak of her development in economic and military power.
for the Thracians: they were some semihellenic tribe later fully Hellenized.

[Rhino]

Demetrios Doukas,

the things are not so simple. Some scholars say that Macedonians and Greeks were related, but not the same people. See this, for example:

Ethnogenesis
As we have seen above, the Macedonians spoke a language that shared a part of its vocabulary with Greek and appears to have shared a part of its development with Thracian and Phrygian. It is not known when those who spoke Macedonian settled in their country, and even less is known about the language that was spoken before their arrival, but it seems that the speakers of Macedonian accepted words from this substrate language.
The settlement of these people between others marks the beginning of the history of Macedonia. Although Homer does not mention the Macedonians as member of the Greek coalition in the Trojan War, his younger contemporary Hesiod presented the Macedonians as related to the Greeks. Outsiders had a similar mixed opinion: the Persians called both nations Yaunâ, distinguishing between those tyaiy paradrayâ ("Greeks across the sea") and those takabarâ ("with sunhats", i.e., Macedonians). An observer in 500 BCE who knew that the Macedonian kings would one day embark upon a policy of hellenization, might have concluded that the Macedonians would one day be assimilated by the Greeks.

This did not happen, however. The Macedonians of the plain became one state with the people of Upper Macedonia, even though the latter spoke other languages, related to Illyrian and Thracian, and in spite of religious differences. The mountain tribes worshipped snakes, joined in orgiastic cults, and venerated Dionysus, whereas the Macedonians of the plain worshipped Zeus and Heracles (as the Greeks called them). How and why did these two groups become one nation?

We have hardly any written evidence, and what we do have is often biased. Still, it seems that the Persian conquest was the decisive factor. It had been subdued by Megabazus and since c.512, king Darius I the Great received tribute from Amyntas, the king of Lower Macedonia, who also gave his daughter in marriage to an Achaemenid nobleman. In the Achaemenid royal inscriptions written after this moment (e.g., DNe), Macedonia is mentioned among the subjects.

Twenty years later, the Persian general Mardonius organized Macedonia as one of the regular tax districts of the empire. Darius recognized the Macedonian leader, Amyntas' son Alexander, and may even have awarded him the Persian rank of satrap. Usually, these officials were responsible for more people than just their own nation. For example, the satrap of Lydia was also the ruler of several nearby Greek towns. We may assume that Persian recognition and support gave Alexander a decisive advantage over the mountain tribes that Mardonius had added to his realm. There is little unambiguous proof, but it fits Achaemenid practice.

However this may be, Alexander was a loyal ally of Darius' son Xerxes when he tried to conquer Greece in 480. As is well known, the Persian annexation of Greece was not successful. In 479, the Greeks defeated the army of Mardonius near Plataea. During the next years, the Athenian alliance, the Delian League, expelled the Persians from Europe.

These years were decisive for the development of the Greek and Macedonian self-image. Until then, they had probably seen each other as different but related nations; after 479, relations worsened and two new cultural and ethnic identities started to grow. Darius and Xerxes had grouped the Macedonians of the plain into one political unit with the mountain tribes, and Alexander kept it this way. At the same time, the Greeks, who had only been united by religion, their legendary cooperation during the Trojan War, and their language, started to recognize that they also shared their cooperation in the Persian War. As former allies of Xerxes, the Macedonians could not be Greeks.

Macedonia

[Demetrius Doukas]

Rhino I think you prove nothing and in the same time the truth is obvios,
the Macedonians are Dorians consequently pure Greek tribe. By the way what you understand by "Greeks". Who are Greeks?! The Achaians and Athenians who lived in the geographical small region called Hellas northwest of Athens only they are "Greeks" maybe are you in your senses?! The Thesalians what they are? The Spartans?(by the way they are Dorians which means Macedonians also Alexander is from there). So the Dorian, Ionian, Aeolian and Achaians tribes what they are????? What are the inhabitants of Cypros?
Of Crete they are Minoans so it is not "Greek" tribe?!
All of these are GREEKS in consideration with the contemporary term - Greek as it is understanded now but you cannot look into the history of Greece from that contemporary point of view you tired me. What is Macedonia if not Hellas? Who saved the whole Hellenic identity during the Byzantine times from the invasions of the Slavs, the Bulgars, the Avaras?! Who made the Panhellenic alliance agaisnt the Persions and saved the whole Greece? Who saved the Hellenic character of Macedonia during the Ottoman times from the "bulgarization and slavonification of North Greece(Macedonia)? Who spread the whole Hellenic civilization in the world if not the Macedonian Hellenic tribe (the first and ancient Greek tribe by the way). Thessaloniki was never controlled by the slavs or avars or bulgars, so Macedonia is was and it will be forever Hellenic the Heart of Greece, the Cradle of the Hellenic civilization. I have plenty of proves read here ÊÑÇÔÇ ËÁÓÉÈÉ ÇÑÁÊËÅÉÏ ÑÅÈÕÌÍÏ ×ÁÍÉÁ ÊÍÙÓÏÓ ÄÉÁÓ ÌÉÍÙÁÓ ÂÅÍÉÆÅËÏÓ
Near mount Olympos and Thermi gulf (where is Thessaloniki) was the beggining of the European civilization and after that the rest of the Greek tribes spread over the lands of todays country called "Greece".
Even the contemporary Greece is divided in REGIONS - the biggest region and HEART of Greece is Macedonia. By the way the Bulgars consist of different tribes and are also divided by regions why not split them because they are not bulgarian historically, if there is FYROM - supposed "Macedonia(ridiculous) why not create a Thracian language and country in Bulgaria?! Or why not split the different slavic tribes into their ellemnts NOW in our contemporary situation?!! In Greece NOW all the Hellenic tribes are MIXED and as a result we have the contemporary GREECE. May be you want Greece not to exist (the only civilezed country in the balkans and into which whole population of emigrants from the neighbouring "very very great" countries" go to work and live but it EXISTS why not better stop to distort and hate and better improve and civilize your own countries but not at the expense of Greece by stealing from her and at the same time to eat bread from there?!

[Demetrius Doukas]

By the way with such attitude I don't see how the poor countries in the balkans will improve their situation you cannot live at the expense of others.

[Ptolemy]

Originally Posted by Rhino

Ethnogenesis
As we have seen above, the Macedonians spoke a language that shared a part of its vocabulary with Greek and appears to have shared a part of its development with Thracian and Phrygian.

The arguments raised by the author [Jona Lendering] to prove his doubts that ancient Macedonian was a greek dialect are at least suspect.

First argument : "there are also Macedonian names that have no Greek parallel (Arridaeus or Sabattaras)"

So out of more than 1000 ancient Macedonians names he picked only two to prove an alledged non-greek origin of ancient Macedonian names??

Its at least hillarious!! Anyway Lendering is on error here.

Arridaeos according to an inscription was a man from Kos (BC BCH 86 (1962) P.275 N 4, 5) (Spoudes Klassikis Filol. APT).

The greek etymology is Ari (= much) + adj Daios (= terrifying). Its full meaning is "too terrifying". Its Aeolian type is Arribaeos.

On the other hand the name Sabattaras is interesting. The root "Sabat-" may be related to that of Sabazios, a Thraco-Phrygian god. This deity was very much worshiped in Asia Minor and other places, and even in Athens since the late 5th century BCE. According to Edson the Macedonians also worshiped him in the form of Dionysos-Sabazios. It seems that Perdrizet (the original publisher of the text of the inscription containing the name Sabattaras) considered the suffix "-taras" as a Thracian one (found also in Thracian names such as "Kotyotaras"). It could have a meaning similar to that of "-doros".

However Sabattaras could have been a Thracian enfranchised by Philippos,
Alexandros or others; or could have been a settler; or Partially Thracian, etc.

In fact, there is no way of knowing whether this particular individual, Sabattaras, was actually a native Macedonian. He may or may not have not been. We can not draw any kind of conclusions from such an insignificant statistical basis. If we attempted to make such an awkward claim like the author, i could say also the same for Atheneans. The name of Oloros, father of Thucydides comes to mind which is Thracian and not Greek.

The fact remains that 95% from the surviving ancient Macedonian names were Greek or derived from Greek roots prior to Philip II era. [Encyclopaedia Bolsaya Sovetskaya]

The settlement of these people between others marks the beginning of the history of Macedonia. Although Homer does not mention the Macedonians as member of the Greek coalition in the Trojan War

Other Greeks are not mentioned by Homer onomastically either but that doesnt mean anything. At the time of Homer there hadnt taken part the migration of Makedones from Pindos. However Homer mentions the Magnetes as member of the Greek coalition and Hesiodus is clear that Macedonians and Magnetes are people of the same race.

his younger contemporary Hesiod presented the Macedonians as related to the Greeks. Outsiders had a similar mixed opinion: the Persians called both nations Yaunâ, distinguishing between those tyaiy paradrayâ ("Greeks across the sea") and those takabarâ ("with sunhats", i.e., Macedonians).

Keyword: Yaunâ; Persians wouldnt have used obviously the name Yaunâ (Greek) if they believed Macedonians werent Greeks. Nothing difficult with the term takabarâ either. Macedonians were the only Greeks from the subjected Greeks of Persian empire who wore the Kausia.

This did not happen, however. The Macedonians of the plain became one state with the people of Upper Macedonia, even though the latter spoke other languages, related to Illyrian and Thracian, and in spite of religious differences.

Where does the author base his assumption the tribes of Upper Macedonia spoke "other languages, related to Illyrian and Thracian" than those of Lower????

From literary evidence [Strabo, etc] we have evidence the mountaineer Makedones spoke the same dialect with Epirotes. That is North-west greek.

The mountain tribes worshipped snakes, joined in orgiastic cults, and venerated Dionysus, whereas the Macedonians of the plain worshipped Zeus and Heracles (as the Greeks called them). How and why did these two groups become one nation?

Simply, for centuries the Argead kings were trying to subject the independent kingdoms of Upper Macedonia and Philip II finally accomplished it. Orgiastic cults and the worship of snakes were also found in other parts of the Greek world. For instance the Molossian princess Olympias was a famous follower of these practises.

In the Achaemenid royal inscriptions written after this moment (e.g., DNe), Macedonia is mentioned among the subjects.

...as Greeks.

However this may be, Alexander was a loyal ally of Darius' son Xerxes when he tried to conquer Greece in 480.

This assumption is refuted by literary evidence [Herodotus]. Alexander I was far from being a "loyal ally of Darius", especially when in certain moments he adviced secretly the Greek forces of Persian moves, aside the fact that Macedonians slained Persians during their retreat.

At the same time, the Greeks, who had only been united by religion, their legendary cooperation during the Trojan War, and their language, started to recognize that they also shared their cooperation in the Persian War. As former allies of Xerxes, the Macedonians could not be Greeks.

That must be the dumbest line i read from this text. How does being Persian allies determines ethnicity? If i shared this ridiculous reasoning i should conclude, Thessalians werent Greeks as they were also Persian allies, Boetians werent Greeks as they were also Persian allies, Ionians of Asia Minor werent Greeks as they were also Persian allies.

Furthermore if Lendering accepts religion as one of the uniting and determining factors of being Greek this contradicts himself since Macedonians of Argead kingdom worshipped the 12 gods of Olympus.

[Demetrius Doukas]

Rhino who are "Greeks" according to your understanding?!! Click on Google "map of ancient Greece to see who lived there. Macedonians assimilated by Greeks, ridiculous THEY WERE THE ASSIMILATORS not the Corinthians and Athenians(the last had more culturaly developed in comparison with the other polisis and Greek tribes.). The Hellenisation was made by the MACEDONIAN HELLENES inside(Phillipos) and outside Greece region(Alexandros). The Macedonians thought like Hellenes not the Athenians like Demostenes who remained just Athenian.
By the way Rhino the "Macedonian problem" was created by the bulgarians. The other country which is interested to split Greece after FYROM(who unfortunatly turned later against Bulgaria, hi hi hi funny don't you think?! the bulgarians received the same coin intended for spliting Greece).
Ptolemeus you can post arguments for Rhino from here:
ÊÑÇÔÇ ËÁÓÉÈÉ ÇÑÁÊËÅÉÏ ÑÅÈÕÌÍÏ ×ÁÍÉÁ ÊÍÙÓÏÓ ÄÉÁÓ ÌÉÍÙÁÓ ÂÅÍÉÆÅËÏÓ, but you need to translate them into English.