Propagandists Use of Badian, Borza and Danforth

[Ptolemy]

I am currently reading Borza's "In the shadow of Olympus" and eventhough i have covered the first 100 pages, Borza's positions are characterised by assumptions, sometimes he accepts literary evidence when it suits his point while in other case he finds it too easy to disregard it as "propaganda" but basically in crucial factors like ancient macedonian language and Macedonian origins he express his uncertainty to indisputable conclusions, where words like "may" and "perhaps" are found frequent.

A few quotes i have selected until now.

About Macedonian origins:

The macedonians themselves may have originated from the same population pool that produced other Greek peoples.

page 84

about argead royal house origins:

but that the argive context is mythic, perhaps a bit of fifth-century BC propaganda.

page 80

Somewhere later he manages to contradict himself by writing

There is NO reason to deny the Macedonians' own tradition about their early kings and the migrations of the Makedones.

The basic story as provided by Herodotus and Thucydides minus the interpolation of the Temenid connection, UNDOUBTEDLY reflects the Macedonians' own traditions about their early history

Page 84

about Macedonian dialect

Whether it was a rude patois that was the dialect of farmers and hillsmen or a style of speaking (like "Laconic") is impossible to know from this scant, late evidence. In any case we cannot tell if it was Greek.

page 92

It is only to say that there is an insufficient sample of words to show exactly what the macedonian language was. It must also be emphasized that this is not to say that it was not Greek; It is only to suggest that, from the linguists' point of view, it is as yet impossible to know

page 93

and he also makes a crucial mistake when he claims:

The made their mark not as a tribe of Greeks or other Balkan peoples, but as Macedonians. This was understood by foreign protagonists from the time of Darius and Xerxes to the age of Roman generals.

page 96

On the contrary foreign protagonists (Persians, Indians, etc) considered Macedonians as Greeks.

[Amyntas]

Well Borza is trying to keep his point of view "alive". Since there has been found new archeological evidence about the macedonian dialect in the last decade. Imagine if he starts saying "well all those years I was wrong, just throw all my books you bought into the thrash bin because what they say isnt true".

[Orphic_Hymn]

Nice collection guys.. but lets not forget that Ernst Badian (History Prof. at Harvard) was ridiculed during the VIIth International Symposium on Ancient Macedonia in Thessaloniki (Oct. 14-18th 2002) .

He was attempting to present his speech about Philip's alleged homosexual life, while Daniel Ogden (assistant at the University of Wales, Swansea) and Kate Mordensen (assistant at the University of New Anglia) were to present their theory which suggested that necromancy, 'black magic' and sexual intrigues were the reason for Philip's death..

I mention ridiculed since when he was confronted by K.Velopoulos with A.Georgiades' book in hand and asked to recite the ancient texts quoted in it, he (Badian) cofessed that he IGNORES the ancient language and strictly based his research upon translations !!

I think its clear that there's no need to say anything more on his value as a 'historian'..

[Ptolemy]

Thats why i believe native greeks could become better historians in reference to ancient greek history than foreigners. To be a native language speaker is really essential in such cases.

[akritas]

Originally Posted by Ptolemy

Thats why i believe native greeks could become better historians in reference to ancient greek history than foreigners. To be a native language speaker is really essential in such cases.

Thats why Hammond was conspicuous as about his work.He knew and spoken very well the modern and ancient Greek languages.

[Ptolemy]

Borza manages to shatter the unconvincing claim used by some who say that just because Thracians also used Greek language in their coins, the use of greek language in their coinage from Macedonians doesnt prove their greekness. However the truth is different

although the thracians continued to produce coins well into the 470s and 460s and although they ADOPTED some of Alexander's innovations (such as inscriptions in Greek), the obverse designs of their issues never achieved the quality of workmanship of their macedonian counterparts. They remain "Thracian" in style, whereas the Macedonian coinage is SIMILAR in its execution to the coins of the Greek world.

<E.N.Borza, "On the Shadows of Olympus" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990), pp.129 >

[Ptolemy]

It is more than clear that prior to Philip's time, the ancient Macedonians were far from united and contrary to the popular belief, Upper Macedonians never felt comfortable with those of Lower Macedonia, to the extent they even prefered to ally with Illyrians or other Greeks against their brethren. Their final incorporation into the Macedonian state was forceful, and it was the same that happened a little later with the forceful unification of Greece from Macedonian Kings.

The argead Macedonians were now in contact with some of the macedonians of the western mountains, who were FORCED to accept a vassalage with which they never were comfortable. It is clear that these tribes retained their own royal houses and considerable local autonomy.....But for at least the next century and a half, the links between lower and upper Macedonians were tenuous at best.

<E.N.Borza, "On the Shadows of Olympus" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 124

Despite the fact that Thucydides (2.99.3.6) could now call the whole area "Macedonia" the Argeads were NOT able to integrate their highland kinsmen into the kingdom until the reign of Philip II, and even then with only mixed success.

<E.N.Borza, "On the Shadows of Olympus" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 124

Whatever the case, there is insufficient information to know whether the army of Alexander I, who was the first king tentively to ATTEMPT an unification fo the Macedonians

<E.N.Borza, "On the Shadows of Olympus" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 126

it becomes clear that the Argeadae were notoriously quarrelsome, and that any unity that the Macedonian kingdom might posses would have to depend upon the strenght that could be excercised from the throne.

<E.N.Borza, "On the Shadows of Olympus" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 135

Philip managed to incorporate the cantons of western macedonia into the greater Macedonians kingdom on a permanent basis. These mountainous regions had been virtually independent - and OFTEN HOSTILE - until Philip's reign, and it was among his first necessities to stabilize the frontier.

<E.N.Borza, "On the Shadows of Olympus" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 135

As for the rivalries among Macedonian families, these are unclear until the time of Philip II, and even here most of the evidence points to a hostility between the houses of western Macedonia and the Argeadae.

<E.N.Borza, "On the Shadows of Olympus" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 237

[Ptolemy]

From Borza with love for skopjans.

Their daughter, who would be the half-sister of Alexander the Great and, later the wife of Cassander, was appropriately named Thessalonike, to commemorate Philip's victory in Thessaly. In 315 Cassander founded at or near the site of ancient Therme the great city that still bears her name.

<E.N.Borza, "On the Shadows of Olympus" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 220

It is difficult to imagine that Philip's policy toward Greece was an end in itself. Once his Balkan borders had been secured his general course seems to have been directed toward the establishment of stability in Greece, NOT CONQUEST.

<E.N.Borza, "On the Shadows of Olympus" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990) page 230